It might not make one iota of difference, but one thing that I am thoroughly convinced of regarding this whole mess - which is a reversal caused by my meeting with Johnson yesterday - is this: The flap caused by the city’s failure to fulfill the N&R’s document request was not caused by either “intransigence or incompetence” on the part of the City Manager’s office. It was caused by confusion. Truth is, the wording of the document request does not match the document that surfaced on Thursday.
Scott Sanders’ attorney Seth Cohen informed the wording for the N&R’s request in this article when he asserted that the memo was “contained in the original ‘black book’“. First question is why would such a memo be “contained” in a line-up book? (Which it wasn’t, it was in a file at Internal Affairs… remember, words are important) But that’s not my larger point.
One would have to assume that Cohen was in possession of the memo and other requested items because he offered to show them all to Council. It is because he had them that he knew to tell the N&R what to request from the City. Did Cohen intentionally mislead the N&R or did the reporter write it down wrong?
Also, does anyone even care how Cohen might have come into possession of such highly sensitive material in the first place? (Answered… I’m a dumbass)
Moreover, if everyone is so interested in complete transparency like they say they are, why doesn’t Cohen and other outlets just go ahead and give everything they have to the media so we can really try this thing - the whole thing - in the court of public opinion. My guess is that it is just more fun to embarrass the City and the N&R a little at a time than to completely embarrass one’s client all at once.
Side note: I freely admit I am carrying Mitch Johnson’s water here. So let’s get past that and deal with the content.
64 Comments
Out of curiosity - what flavor was the Kool-AId you drank?
Grape. Now read the post again and give me an intelligent response.
Somehow, I really think this recent hubub is all about embarrassment (as you said) and payback of some sort.
I do believe the City, and Johnson in particular, have been a little too tight lipped in some areas - and not tight lipped enough in others.
There certainly is cause for concern over Johnson’s ability to manage successfully, in my opinion. I have a very low level of trust in what he’s done (or not) in this whole mess. One of the reasons he did what he did to Wray was because he felt he couldn’t trust Wray - well, I don’t feel like I could trust Johnson - should he be locked out of his office, or forced to resign because of it? Who knows - I do happen to think that if Johnson were out of the mix, it would begin the seriously delinquent healing process for Greensboro.
I stand by my reporting.
Margaret, no doubt - you should. ANYONE in ANY department in this city with even a HINT of knowledge about the “black book” scandal would surely know what you were asking for.
I’m not questioning anyone’s reporting Margaret as I think you know. My question is: Did Cohen provide you with the actual wording submitted with the request?
Margaret’s request did not indicate that the memo she was seeking was “contained in the original ‘black book’“.
According to her blog, she requested “The two-page memo Tom Fox and Scott Sanders wrote summarizing the rationale behind the ‘black book.’” How Cohen may have described it is irrelevant. Compare the city’s response to Margaret’s request to what Margaret requested. To compare the city’s response to Cohen’s description is a red herring.
As to transparency, private citizens do not have the same responsibility as our government. The law compels the city to release information and they are refusing to do so. It’s not just this single memo, look at the big picture–all of the information that is being denied to the public and a clear picture of “intransigence or incompetenceâ€? does indeed come into focus.
Cohen doesn’t owe Mitch Johnson or the City of Greensboro one iota of anything. They along with the SBI are trying to put his clients in jail. The hell with Mitch Johnson. I can’t believe you are falling for such a desperate word game. You and Mitch are the ONLY people in town who do not understand Margarets request.
First off, lemme just say that I’m home and I don’t have my notes from my conversation with Cohen in front of me.
Having said that, I believe when Cohen mentioned the memo, I started asking for specifics. I believe I was the one who said something to the effect of, “Now this is something Sanders and Fox wrote?” And Cohen said yes, and then moved on.
Again, going on memory. Hope that helps. I’m not exactly eager to become part of this story.
Agreed, Roch, Cohen’s “contained in” was in the article, not in the request. But the fact is… the memo was not anywhere near the black book and is not a “part” of it. It is the explanation of why the book was made and used.
The response that such a memo did “not exist” was a huge blunder on the part of Buie. But there was no lying involved.
Trnaparency is a game that everyone can play if they so choose. If private individuals want to get things out there, they can do so much more easily than governments can. If Cohen really wants the Council to see what he’s got, he can send it to me and I will post it for him.
I might be wearing several of those herrings before this is over.
Mitch knows he is going down and is grasping at straws. Willow Oaks, Bryant Electric, David wray, all of these and many, many more things have finally caught up. I say GOOD RIDDANCE
wayne, This whole thing has been about “word games”.
Thanks for the clarification Margaret.
Who is being transparent? Not you Hoggy. So, you met with Mitch and he lays out a story of grand conspiracy for you to champion? What exactly did you and Mitch talk about?
As usual they all missed the point Hogg. Why didnt Cohen just hand the document to Margaret Banks since he obviously had it. What else does Cohen or others have in their possession that they could release for true transparency.( the word du jour) Transparency for me is David Wray holding a news conference and answering everything and not hiding behind others.
I do want to thank you for trying to save War memorial Stadium. It has a very special place in my heart. I was the Greensboro Patriots bat boy in 47 and 48. I saw Ted Williams hit one over the center field flag pole. I saw Muscle shoals hit 4 home runs one sunday afternoon. I saw Jackie Robinson there along with local heros Sheepy Lamb and my all time hero Emo Shofety. I worked for Mr Rufus Blanchard, who owned the team, thru High School School. Yes, I have many fond memories of War Memorial Stadieum Thanks
“Also, does anyone even care how Cohen might have come into possession of such highly sensitive material in the first place?”
http://lawdigest.uslegal.com/evidence/discovery/3226/
Cohen defends folks that are being indicted for crimes while working for the city, by LAW Cohen has a right to see and posses any and all documents related to the case. Hogg, stop embarrassing yourself.
I don’t give a rat’s behind about the wording on the request or Hoggard’s ping pong game.
Look at what the document says.
As Roch pointed out why is this not the same scenario that played out when Johnson first asked for the “sinister” black book and Wray did not associate that he was talking about a routine photo line up?
The WHAT BLACK BOOK? and the OH THAT MEMO! seem to be very similar. But Johnson is not calling Higgins Lock & Key in order to return to work on Monday.
I do have a question for Margaret Banks. In the article you wrote “some community leaders thought it (the line up book) unfairly targeted black officers.”
Please name these people who have perpetrated this deception on our community. I have googled every way I know how and I am unable to find specifics on who these leaders are. I apologize if that information is posted and I just can’t find it.
Hogg, I’m glad that what I wrote earlier and hoped for might be a possibility. I shudder to think that our online community is like a Rottweiler with bone and no matter what logic or learning or new stuff you come across, can’t change its already-made-up mind. I don’t know, and I certainly don’t hope that the misunderstood memo was being intentionally suppressed and I wish that attorney had written that she needed more information to locate it (instead of that it didn’t exist). Maybe I’m just terminally hopeful (and my meds are antibiotics) that this was a misunderstanding.
Things have gotten way out of hand and this Mitch-hatred as scary now as the Boston witch hunts were in their own time. We need to settle down. We need to have an open conversation - out loud. And we need to remember that a closed mind is simply a terrible thing.
Hogg, I went over this bullshit two days ago. Mitch is jerking your chain, playing antics with semantics.
Tell him to quit being such a wussy and using you to tell his story. If he thinks I’m wrong or Margaret is wrong then he can comment on my blog or hers and refute our positions.
Better still, let’s set up a forum, one on one and let me cross examine Mitch Johnson about his story.
Obviously, Mitch is filtering through you and like I told you yesterday, this only proves his incompetence even more. He is still trying to tell a story when people stopped listening a long time ago. He is too politically deaf to realize where he stands right now and the reasons for it.
More importantly, everytime he tries to defend himself he makes it worse with bullshit excuse like this one he gave to you to pass on to the rest of us.
Getting past all the smoke screens- the idea that Mitch didn’t know what document Margaret was asking for fools only the most ignorant among us. Blaming it on Cohen (notice how it is ALWAYS someone else’s fault, not the Great Mitch Johnson) is even more desperate. But even at this late hour, his ego and belief that he can still fool people because he is so brilliant prevails over what is painfully obvious to everyone else.
The idea that Mitch is still trying to get people to listen his latest version of events shows how not up to the task he truly is.
Nick said:
“Why didnt Cohen just hand the document to Margaret Banks since he obviously had it. What else does Cohen or others have in their possession that they could release for true transparency”
BECAUSE COHEN DOES NOT WORK FOR THE CITY AND PRIVATE CITIZENS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO RELY ON OTHER PRIVATE CITIZENS TO GET DOCUMENTS THAT THE LAW SAYS THE CITY SHOULD PROVIDE!!
Sorry about the shouting, but this bullshit is precisely why Roch, Joe and I filed our request. It isn’t Cohen’s job, or Ben Holder’s or the N&R’s or the Rhino’s to produce public documents.
Hi, Tony, my fellow Dylanite.
Didn’t Pulpit Forum members say the “black book” unfairly targeted black officers? Wasn’t that why Mitch Johnson addressed the issue at a meeting?
Also, I can say with certainty that many, many people in the black community thought that, and still do. I don’t purport to have my finger on the pulse of the black community, but I can say that it has come up many times.
Hope that helps.
David, I’m curious about the process the city used to look for this document. Did you and Mitch discuss that? Did the city conduct both a physical search for a copy of the document as well as a computer search for a digital copy? For the physical search, how many and which file cabinets, drawers, and folders were searched, and why? For the computer search, how was it conducted? Did they search only for documents written by both Fox and Sanders and thus missed one written by Sanders alone? Why do they think they did not find the proper document? Who was responsible for the search? Who reviewed that person’s work? Did Mitch know of Ms. Peterson-Buie’s reply before she sent it to the N&R?
I am admittedly in the anti-Mitch crowd, but I’m willing to listen to any explanations he has. The ones I’ve heard so far don’t impress me. I have a lot of respect and admiration for you and Sandy Carmony, but I need more than “if you knew what I know�.
” Truth is, the wording of the document request does not match the document that surfaced on Thursday.”
The wording has been compared already, and the only substantial difference was that it was attributed to an additional author (Fox). As John Robinson pointed out already, Holder and the Rhino had no trouble understanding which document the request referred to.
David,
Your evaluation should not begin with Margaret’s request. The fact is that there is no reason why this document shouldn’t have been released long ago if the City had a desire to release information of its own volition instead of waiting for it to be pried into the open. Even if that’s too much to ask, this document, and volumes of others (as-yet unreleased) should have been provided by now in response to Sam’s, Joe’s and my request of November 6th, 2007.
This isn’t about a misunderstanding over a single request of a single memo, it’s about the City’s compulsion, under the management of Mitch Johnson, to keep public information secret.
By the way, David, if you want the text in your comments input box to not be white so it’s visible on all computers (I know I do!
) please email me… contact info is in the sidebar of my blog.
Anthony, we’re going to change this template. I had been waiting for David to send a graphic and by golly, I have it and simply forgot that I had it. I’m going to back it all up this week and install the new template which should clear up this issue. It’s not particularly pretty and the colors, well, suck.
(Pleading the flu, not the first.)
One more thing:
“It is because he had them that he knew to tell the N&R what to request from the City. Did Cohen intentionally mislead the N&R or did the reporter write it down wrong?”
I never spoke to Cohen. I made it clear that we wanted all “supplementary” information about the black book in my January 30th letter. I used my own words (well mine & Roch’s), and I didn’t even get the courtesy of being lied to.
I referred specifically to the documents that Cohen was referring to, even using his name. These are the same documents that the City Council was going to meet with Cohen about before Alan Duncan nixed the idea. This was before Margaret was lied to and while everyone knew exactly what documents were at issue because of Cohen’s letter and planned meeting with the City.
To claim that nobody knew what documents that Margaret or Roch, Joe and I were referring to considering all of the publicity in the 2-3 weeks beforehand surrounding these documents is utter bullshit and shows that Johnson takes smart people for fools.
Every time he tries to spin his way out of it, he gets himself tied up in knots. At some point it should have occurred to him that he is nowhere near as smart and clever as he thinks he is.
“Every time he tries to spin his way out of it, he gets himself tied up in knots. At some point it should have occurred to him that he is nowhere near as smart and clever as he thinks he is.”
Personal remarks aside, Sam makes an important point. Here is the paragraph from his letter of January 30, 2008:
“With regard to the “black bookâ€?, we want to reiterate that our request includes all supplemental documentation. As I
am sure you are aware, Seth Cohen has stated that there are supplementary documents that are related to the “black
book� which have not been made available to the City Council even though my understanding is that the City legal
department has copies of these documents.”
If Margaret’s request came up empty because of incorrect specifics, our request describes a set of documents that correctly includes the memo in question. To this date, we haven’t received any documents in response to this request.
I posted this as Ed’s…still waiting for a response…
I have always said perhaps the truth about this entire drama is somewhere in the middle. I know many of you believe i am a Johnson supporter. I am not so much a Johnson supporter as I am void of any “real” answers from Wray. What disturbs me is why is Wray hiding behind Bledsoe/Rhino? Why does he continue to refuse interviews with the News & Record or other media so hard questions can be answered and not the sanitized Bledose version? Please explain in his own words, why he asked Brady to secure the black book. Why didnt he tell Johnson that he knew of the exisitence of the book. Why would Wray question the integrity of retired investigators (Thacker etc.) that he brought in to investigate Hinson. Was it because they didnt reach the conclusion he wanted. There are just so many questions that only Wray can answer but he refuses to speak. Johnson, whether you believe him or not, has been willing to talk as much as he legally could, and granted interviews about the topic on multiple occasions. So Stormy, Joe, Bubba, Spag and all the others…..when you can get Wray to do a news conference and answer the HARD questions, perhaps I can truly believe his version of events. Right now however….silence is deafening. Any if you choose to respond to this post, please give me definitive comments made BY Wray and not through surrogates, Rhino,Bledsoe etc.
I can address your concerns about Wray by noting that, were I Wray, I’d have good reason not to trust the N&R or that, despite your desire to deal with the facts, you get them wrong a lot, when you write that Wray did not tell Johnson of the line-up book, for example.
But, more importantly, I keep “mentioning Johnson” because Johnson is a public servant accountable to you and me, Wray, Bledsoe et al. are not. The organization Johnson leads has obligations under the law to provide us with information it thus far has refused to release. If you desire not to see this played out in a “tabloid” fashion any longer, then you’ll join me in calling for the release of documents surrounding this affair. Contemporaneous documentation of the events as they transpired are they key to the truth. Sam Spagnola, Joe Guarino and I made a formal request of the city for public documents over three months ago. It has gone largely unfulfilled. Will you voice your support for our request?
Here is the records request of November 6, 2007 submitted by Sam, Joe and me: http://theconalt.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/records-request.pdf
“Please explain in his own words, why he asked Brady to secure the black book.”
Wray answered that. He said that Brady was worried that officers under investigation might get a hold of it. Brady told Wray he was going to put it in his trunk for the time being. Brady says that Wray told him to put it in his trunk. It makes no real difference who told who because they both agreed it needed to be kept in a secure place because it involved an internal investigation.
“Why didnt he tell Johnson that he knew of the exisitence of the book.”
Wray did tell Johnson on July 11, 2005 that he had a photo lineup that might meet the description of the “black book” and Johnson did not seem interested.
“Why would Wray question the integrity of retired investigators (Thacker etc.) that he brought in to investigate Hinson.”
Wray answered that pretty clearly in the Rhino installment 47 that came out three weeks ago.
Why should it matter whether he tells his story to the Rhino instead of the N&R? As Roch points out, his trust in the N&R and Lorraine Ahearn has been completely shattered. Why help them sell papers?
Our government and system of justice puts the burden of proof on the government, not the accused. If Johnson has a case, it is up to him to prove it. Wray doesn’t have to prove his innocence, although I believe for the most part that he has.
A resolute society holds the government accountable. In this case, they have failed.
I have never understood those who have tried to shift the burden of proof to Wray- he was the one who got fired and the real answers as to why that happened should come from those who fired him. That has not happened in any coherent or credible way.
Go Spagnola! (And I can’t believe I’m saying this), Go Roch!
Preston, I’m sorry but that process never came up.
As for the rest of it… I take it most of you savagely disagree with what I wrote. Noted…
Feel better?
Mitch… see what I was talking about?
Where is Hoggard’s account of the 3 hour conversation he had with Mitch Johnson? Has this been written?
The issue now is about should Johnson be held accountable for his actions. He is incompetent at best and a liar at worst. He cant be trusted to tell the truth or do the right thing. He has lost all credibility with many in this city. He will be a distraction and the city will never be able to move forward as long as he is in charge. Is this really the kind of person we want to run our city? I know I dont.
Because there is was a justified, documented reason to create a photo line up of black police officers the City of Greensboro, AKA Mitch Johnson and his supporters have either, unknowingly(if it was truly overlooked) or knowingly publicly fueled racism in the city by making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Either way, now that the cat is out of the bag, it is the city leadership’s responsibility to make amends with all parties involved. Until then there will be no “healing” and Greensboro will continue it’s decent into the racial cesspool it has tried so hard to pull itself from for decades.
This debacle created and managed by Mitch Johnson has caused more racial disharmony in Greensboro than any other event since 1978.
David wrote:
Feel better?
Mitch… see what I was talking about?
————-
David,
This sounds dismissive. Several matters of fact have been presented above, including the very relevant matter of the request by Sam, Joe and me that has gone unanswered despite the fact that what it describes would clearly have included the memo in question.
I also offered a review on Ed’s blog of the devolution of the reasons for not releasing the RMA report from it was part of an SBI investigation (long completed) to the ultimate absurdity that its release would simply violate common sense.
These are matters of fact. Do I feel better? No, I’d feel better if you tell me how you assimilate these facts into your view that the city’s response to releasing public documents does not constitute “intransigence or incompetence.â€?
Roch, I apologize.
I had just returned from a few hours of family and scanned the tenor of the thread and just threw my hands up and made a dismissive comment. Forgive me.
Give me some time to settle in…
Hugh, With all due respect. Your take about the book is so far off that I really don’t know how to respond. Anyone else?
“Your take about the book is so far off that I really don’t know how to respond. Anyone else?”
David, it is exactly this kind of “if you only knew what I know” mentality without showing the cards that got Mitch into trouble in the first place.
The memos on the black book speak for themselves and they don’t paint ANY towards any racial targeting.
We have been told “if you only knew” time and time again, and the City made it clear they never intended to let us know. Meanwhile, we see actual documents and explanations the run contrary to the story that Johnson sold to us. He has no answer and he’s too arrogant to ever admit he got it wrong and apologize.
With all due respect David, you are being willfully blind to the plethora of evidence that surrounds you.
Hogg,
I do hope you understand the LAWS that allow Cohen to have documents regarding his clients case. It is astonishing that you even asked:”Also, does anyone even care how Cohen might have come into possession of such highly sensitive material in the first place?”
Further, it is the city’s job to answer public records request according to the law. Mitch’s staff fails miserably and habitually in that regard. Why not just tell us blow by blow what you and Mitch talked about?
“why doesn’t Cohen and other outlets just go ahead and give everything they have to the media so we can really try this thing - the whole thing - in the court of public opinion. My guess is that it is just more fun to embarrass the City and the N&R a little at a time than to completely embarrass one’s client all at once.”
Again, your remarks are astonishing. You have already publicly accussed Cohen of giving out documents. That is insane. You then want a criminal case to be tried out of court? Hogg, the United States doesn’t work that way. The things you hint at and ask are crazy. Mitch and his crew of idiots are the ones that HAVE to answer public records requests. I would be careful slinging unporven allegations at Cohen. In all of this, please tell us what you and Mitch talked about. Can you be transparent? Who was the reporter doing an interview?
Under the best of circumstances, I think the City looks terrible on this one.
But in fairness, is this really a fair comparison? Anthony says, “As John Robinson pointed out already, Holder and the Rhino had no trouble understanding which document the request referred to.”
JR’s comment seems a little glib to me.
Are the situations really analogous?
The City (assuming lack of ill intent) was looking for one document among many, based on search criteria they say were unclear.
Hammer and Holder…what? Were handed the specific document and told it was important?
Ed,
Do you think the search criteria “all supplemental documentation” to the “black book” is unclear?
“itch and his crew of idiots are the ones that HAVE to answer public records requests.”
Hellloooo!
It appears more and more to me that the Hoggster did a 3 hour suck-up, and the mysterious meeting (why didn’t the Mitchster ask the troublemaker to come along)was scripted from the get-go! The Mitchster is really grabbing at straws, getting another lacky to do his bidding.
I am gonna write a post later on at my place tonight. This is getting out of control. By the way, this is not the first time the existence of the memo has been denied by the city.
News 2 on Jan. 27, 2006, that there was “no evidence” supporting Wray’s version of the photo array.
“We checked that system and nowhere can we find a report that fits the nature of what we’ve been investigating involving a police officer committing a sexual offense against a suspect,” Bellamy said. Ed, it became important once Tim said that.
Ed, this wasn’t some needle in a haystack bullshit. This was a critical document that went to the heart of the City’s case against Wray. This should have been at the top of the stack of important stuff on Johnson’ desk- despite the fact that the document completely undermines his theory about the misuse of the photo lineup.
It’s like Monica’s blue dress. “Oh you mean THAT blue dress. There are so many in my closet.”
Greensboro, NC — A Greensboro police investigation challenges the former chief’s explanation for the infamous “black book.”
City Manager Mitchell Johnson claims the special intelligence division used the book to conduct bogus investigations of black officers. He says it contained photos of 19 black officers and nearly a hundred other black males.
Chief Wray says the book was used to investigate a sexual assault allegation against an officer.
But Interim Chief Tim Bellamy says detectives haven’t found any documentation of the incident.
“We checked that system and no where can we find a report that fits the nature of what we’ve been investigating involving a police officer committing a sexual offense against a suspect,” Bellamy said.
WFMY News 2
Beau and Ben:
This only again proves that every time Mitch opens his mouth to try and make himself look better it backfires, makes matters worse, and raises more questions than it answers.
This is why the consensus that he is incompetent in his role as City Manager has been reached. He just doesn’t get it. He didn’t get it Thursday and he plainly still doesn’t get it.
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